tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post5513964084910531295..comments2023-09-05T04:09:28.653-04:00Comments on Sacred Space: Reading the Bible as non-literal truthUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger179125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-41922524569250377372008-02-26T16:14:00.000-05:002008-02-26T16:14:00.000-05:00You will be happy to know that I am going to make ...You will be happy to know that I am going to make a specific point of avoiding praying for you.<BR/><BR/>If you wish, I will even pray against you.<BR/><BR/>My best wishes.<BR/><BR/>Bill Van Fleet<BR/>Humanianity, free at<BR/>HomoRationalis.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-22421371791275470672008-02-26T14:10:00.000-05:002008-02-26T14:10:00.000-05:00Interesting. However experiment showed that people...Interesting. However experiment showed that people who knew they are being prayed for are doing worse then those who didn't (<A HREF="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681" REL="nofollow"/>).<BR/><BR/>So in telling people that you pray for them you actually do worse to them according to the researchers.<BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/> IztokAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-52722659781739789202008-02-26T12:45:00.000-05:002008-02-26T12:45:00.000-05:00Perhaps prayer is for the person praying, and is t...Perhaps prayer is for the person praying, and is the exercising of benovolence toward and concern for the person prayed for. And if the person doing the praying believes in what he or she is doing, then the person who is praying is exercising and strengthening the capacity to care for another. If someone prays for you, it doesn't do anything bad to you. I see nothing to be gained from taking offense. It is the effort to wish you well, within the belief system of the praying individual. Taking offense actually may foster the stereotype of the atheist as angry, angry at Christians, angry at social convention, angry at God, etc. I understand the anger at being regarded as evil within a society that demands belief as an act of obedience, belief in the nonbelievable, but I don't think the answer to the problem is motivated by that anger.<BR/><BR/>Bill Van Fleet<BR/>Humanianity, free at<BR/>HomoRationalis.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-85614917779952672232008-02-26T08:12:00.000-05:002008-02-26T08:12:00.000-05:00"From what you say, you wish to help this individu..."From what you say, you wish to help this individual, who actually has not asked for your help. "<BR/><BR/>I <B>never</B> ask to be prayed for yet some people feel that they have the need to pray for me and even being smug to tell me that they are praying for me. Not only I never asked for, there is no need for anyone to pray (evidence shows that prayer simply doesn't work but people refuse to accept that) let alone pray for me. Which one is worse? One is pointing out facts, another is wishful thinking. People involved in wishful thinking don't really believe in it either and know that they actually have to do some work to get things done in real life or have others do the work. Either way any real work is being done by humans.<BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/> IztokAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-56834077211322186572008-02-25T20:21:00.000-05:002008-02-25T20:21:00.000-05:00Iztok,You write: "The way I see it people who obje...Iztok,<BR/><BR/>You write: <B>"The way I see it people who object your view are doing it to educate you to try to get you see your delusion because they care about you. We don't want to see you living in a god fearing manner only to find out that there is nothing after death and your efforts were wasted. We would like you to live and enjoy what you have right now. To celebrate your life and make most of it you can. Imagine how many hours of potential good deeds have gone by while you pray and go to church? You could have dedicated that time to help a kid in foster care for example."</B><BR/><BR/>We both know there is more to this issue. From what you say, you wish to help this individual, who actually has not asked for your help. And what you are trying to do may have some unintended consequences.<BR/><BR/>My observation is that many individuals have beliefs in their religions that provide enormous relief. In addition, the religions act in such a way as to produce much stress in anyone contemplating imperfection in the religion. There is the mandate to believe as an act of obedience, with the threat of extreme punishment if one disobeys. There is the implication of acting in a disloyal manner to the group that may be the most important in one's life, giving the person a sense of purpose and belonging and acceptance, such that questioning of belief required for membership in the group threatens the individual with disapproval and excommunication, and possibly even critical conflict with the individuals most important in the person's life, such as spouse. And the individual may have dealt with major life stress, such as an important death, by maintenance of comforting beliefs provided by the religion, such that the questioning of those beliefs could reactivate such stress. I have heard some say that loss of belief would make suicide a reasonable option.<BR/><BR/>Now you could say that you are only carrying on a conversation with someone who obviously is requesting it, by his or her continued replies. But we both know that a person could be doing so out of the belief that to stop doing so would be some sort of admission of doubt, so that the person is driven to continue, despite the stress involved.<BR/><BR/>So you could be saying that you care about and are helping a person by taking his or her pain medication away, even though he or she has a great need for it. That is assuming quite a bit of responsibility that no deity has given you.<BR/><BR/>All of this stress is an example of what I refer to as cultural victimization. The villain is the culture, which turns people against each other and in many ways causes pain, suffering, disability, and early death. And you and I are victims in the same way. To have a minority view with regard to such a highly valued issue means a certain sense of isolation and a limitation in the number of meaningful relationships that one can have. And there is the sense of dishonesty and lack of integrity that goes along with pretending to believe the same as others.<BR/><BR/>Our religions do an enormous amount of good, but also an enormous amount of harm. It is quite an oversimplification, in my opinion, that the answer is just to defeat the religions and get rid of them, whereupon everyone will be better off. I believe instead that perhaps we can help ourselves by suggesting that all the religions have both good and bad in them, just as all of us who devise them do, and that just as we can all work toward self-improvement and becoming a better person, we can also work on improving our religions from within, gradually moving beyond the unfortunate, non-optimal legacies from the past, and promoting and growing the good that is also present. This is my reason for promoting Humanianity, as I do at my website.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, I am not sure I have ever found an atheist who did not have some important beliefs that involved pseudoscience. And for the vast majority of us, the ability to tell the difference between science and pseudoscience is very poor. So we are dealing with phenomena that are perhaps easy to see in others but very difficult to see in ourselves.<BR/><BR/>And if you are questioning another's use of his or her time in his or her religious activities, could one also question the use of one's time involved in conversations such as these, as opposed to studying, just for an example, the anger prevention paradigm in that chapter in my book? (I mention this only because I care about you and want to help you.)<BR/><BR/>Bill Van Fleet<BR/>Humanianity, free at<BR/>HomoRationalis.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-44310769088191091962008-02-24T09:18:00.000-05:002008-02-24T09:18:00.000-05:00CWC, "You seem kind of mad and flustered, I'm sorr...CWC, "You seem kind of mad and flustered, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to start a fight...good luck with everything my friend.<BR/><BR/>I will be praying for you because I care about you."<BR/><BR/>The way I see it people who object your view are doing it to educate you to try to get you see your delusion because they care about you. We don't want to see you living in a god fearing manner only to find out that there is nothing after death and your efforts were wasted. We would like you to live and enjoy what you have right now. To celebrate your life and make most of it you can. Imagine how many hours of potential good deeds have gone by while you pray and go to church? You could have dedicated that time to help a kid in foster care for example.<BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/> IztokAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-33693418605611748172008-02-24T00:20:00.000-05:002008-02-24T00:20:00.000-05:00CWC, you are a good person and are trying to do a ...CWC, you are a good person and are trying to do a good thing. You believe in what you are doing, and you are standing up for what you believe in.<BR/><BR/>And that would be only good, except for the fact that those who flew into the WTC did also. There has to be a way to prevent people from making such mistakes.<BR/><BR/>How can a person tell whether or not he or she is making a mistake?<BR/><BR/>Bill Van Fleet<BR/>Humanianity<BR/>HomoRationalis.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-23200296438011244822008-02-23T22:19:00.000-05:002008-02-23T22:19:00.000-05:00CWC, "You do not have the authority to pick what y...CWC, "You do not have the authority to pick what you want out of the Bible and disregard the rest."<BR/><BR/>You can so why can't anyone else?<BR/><BR/>If you don't pick what you want then you MUST accept earth is flat. You must accept the whole universe was created in 6 days. You must accept that order between Gen 1 and 2 are messed up, you must accept that Bible doesn't say anywhere that Luke 3 is Mary's genealogy. You must accept that Jesus came to separate families for kids to hate their mothers and fathers etc...<BR/><BR/>Yet you don't accept that. You don't accept that God of the OT was vengeful scorekeeper either.<BR/><BR/>You do pick and choose yet you don't allow others to do the same when they point out the bad and ugly parts of your Bible.<BR/><BR/>BTW: Mark, Mattew, Luke, and John were not the ones who wrote the gospels.<BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/> IztokAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-12289938731934460232008-02-23T18:57:00.000-05:002008-02-23T18:57:00.000-05:00Don't worry, I'm not mad and flustered. Good luck ...Don't worry, I'm not mad and flustered. Good luck to you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-67248531556349538412008-02-23T18:38:00.000-05:002008-02-23T18:38:00.000-05:00P*rnstudent, I care about people, so I choose t...P*rnstudent,<BR/> I care about people, so I choose to stand up for the truth of the Gospel and share with you the forgiveness of Jesus Christ. <BR/><BR/>You seem kind of mad and flustered, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to start a fight...good luck with everything my friend. <BR/><BR/>I will be praying for you because I care about you.<BR/><BR/>-CWCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-76126564966570919632008-02-23T17:01:00.000-05:002008-02-23T17:01:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-15635176959008407342008-02-23T16:53:00.000-05:002008-02-23T16:53:00.000-05:00"You do not have the authority to pick what you wa..."You do not have the authority to pick what you want out of the Bible and disregard the rest."<BR/><BR/>Yes, I do.<BR/><BR/>John was written by John and Acts by Luke. I don't agree with them. So? Why do you? You claim to care about people yet you choose to believe they are going to Hell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-75708593283154714562008-02-23T16:37:00.000-05:002008-02-23T16:37:00.000-05:00P*rntsudent, John 3:18 says:"He who believes in ...P*rntsudent,<BR/> John 3:18 says:<BR/><BR/>"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."<BR/><BR/>Acts 4:12 says:<BR/><BR/>"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”<BR/><BR/>If you don't think that's as clear as can be, nothing will ever be. Jesus paid the penalty for sin so you would have the opportunity to be forgiven...the forgiveness is only applied if you do what John 3:18 says.<BR/><BR/>You do not have the authority to pick what you want out of the Bible and disregard the rest. I can only imagine how you would feel if someone did that to what you wrote...even on this blog!<BR/><BR/>-CWCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-8456618513550935472008-02-23T15:42:00.000-05:002008-02-23T15:42:00.000-05:00I said it isn't required to believe in the Bible t...<A HREF="http://janepope.blogspot.com/2008/01/reading-bible-as-non-literal-truth.html#c8254905241208969493" REL="nofollow">I said</A> it isn't required to believe in the Bible to believe in Jesus so that you would be able to discard the parts of the Bible that say faith in Jesus is needed to get to Heaven. I thought you might like to know that no one is going to Hell. If we have sinned and Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, I <I>will</I> see you in Heaven. All of us will.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-89111608363836361692008-02-23T13:20:00.000-05:002008-02-23T13:20:00.000-05:00I'm pretty certain Jesus is dead. If he were alive...<B> I'm pretty certain Jesus is dead. If he were alive, maybe you can experience him personally rather than needing the Bible to tell you about him. </B><BR/><BR/><BR/>P*rnstudent,<BR/> Thanks for the reply. Well, why do you have this "either or" idea...instead of "both and". If Jesus is alive, why couldn't you experience him personally <I>and</I> have the Bible tell you about him? The Bible tells you <I>how</I> to experience him personally.<BR/><BR/>If Jesus is alive, that means he rose from the dead. Now, if God raised Jesus from the dead, why couldn't he get you a book in your hands to tell you about him? <BR/><BR/>It seems pretty reasonable to me that if God exists, he could...<BR/><BR/>-become a man <BR/>-rise from the dead<BR/>-get you what you need to know about him through a book<BR/><BR/>I will humbly beg and plead with you to think about these things. After all, just like you said before...if its true, its true whether you believe it or not! If it is true (which of course I think it is), I would like to see you in heaven someday rather than just argue with you on a blog.<BR/><BR/>I do really care, I promise you that.<BR/><BR/>-CWCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-57993279127968658902008-02-23T12:41:00.000-05:002008-02-23T12:41:00.000-05:00CWC,I'm not sure if what I wrote is exactly what I...CWC,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure if what I wrote is exactly what I intended to say. I probably could have made my thoughts clearer if I were a better writer.<BR/><BR/>I'm pretty certain Jesus is dead. If he were alive, maybe you can experience him personally rather than needing the Bible to tell you about him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-37128376308265864432008-02-23T09:50:00.000-05:002008-02-23T09:50:00.000-05:00p*rnstudent,Two quick questions... I'm sorry I...p*rnstudent,<BR/><BR/>Two quick questions...<BR/><BR/> I'm sorry I'm not sure if what you just said is true in your posting...is what you wrote exactly what you intended to say?<BR/><BR/>Second...Are you saying Jesus might be alive?! where'd you find that out from?<BR/><BR/><BR/>I'd appreciate answers to these two questions. Thanks!<BR/><BR/>-CWCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-28513454696594675222008-02-22T17:31:00.000-05:002008-02-22T17:31:00.000-05:00CWC - "We only have what was written."We have our ...CWC - "We only have what was written."<BR/><BR/>We have our life experiences and intelligence. <BR/><BR/>CWC - "how do you know about Jesus unless you read about Him in the Bible?"<BR/><BR/>If Jesus is alive, you can have a personal experience with him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-46007191084977158822008-02-22T16:48:00.000-05:002008-02-22T16:48:00.000-05:00P*rnstudent, Are you sure you're thinking abou...P*rnstudent,<BR/> Are you sure you're thinking about all this clearly?<BR/><BR/>You don't agree with me, but you agree with Jane because she said the Bible was not "perfectly preserved to say exactly what God intended." <BR/><BR/>Please tell me how you know what God intended? We only have what was written. Its illogical to ever talk about an authors intent. I don't know if what you wrote is what you "intended" either. Jane's statement makes no sense.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Then you say...."It isn't required to believe in the Bible to believe in Jesus."<BR/><BR/>well, how do you know about Jesus unless you read about Him in the Bible?<BR/><BR/>I just don't understand what you guys are getting at. You hound me over one word in Isaiah....then use completely circular logic with everything else you say and want people to hear you out on all your opinions.<BR/><BR/>-CWCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-76104107697467998412008-02-22T14:20:00.000-05:002008-02-22T14:20:00.000-05:00Of course. But I would stop thinking of the victi...Of course. But I would stop thinking of the victims as perpetrators. They are doing what they believe to be the right thing to do. I believe the people who flew into the WTC were probably really good people who gave their lives for what they felt was the right thing to do. But they made a terrible mistake. They were victims of their culture, as were we. We need to understand the nature of the problem.<BR/><BR/>Rats can live happily in an enclosure. Start making the enclosure smaller and smaller, and before long the rats start attacking each other. Each rat knows what the problem is--that other rat. So the rat needs some to be on his side to attack those other bad rats, right?<BR/><BR/>Bill Van Fleet<BR/>Humanianity<BR/>HomoRationalis.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-47064398236172989012008-02-22T14:04:00.000-05:002008-02-22T14:04:00.000-05:00"I think we have to be kind and understanding towa..."I think we have to be kind and understanding toward the victims and recognize that we are all in some ways victims of our cultures."<BR/><BR/>I agree. But we shouldn't allow victims to become perpetrators should we?<BR/><BR/>My soon to be adopted daughter was exposed to child abuse in many forms in her life. From neglect to probably physical and perhaps even sexual abuse. She came a long way since she came to our home. However just yesterday another abuse from her past surfaced. She was exposed to extreme mental abuse with threats of eternal hell. It will probably take long months and perhaps years to work on this one as well.<BR/><BR/>It is time we stop abusing our kids with threats of hell.<BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/> IztokAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-82549052412089694932008-02-22T13:17:00.000-05:002008-02-22T13:17:00.000-05:00Bill - You are quite the promoter! CWC - Read Jane...Bill - You are quite the promoter! <BR/><BR/>CWC - Read Jane's original post. She would agree with Iztok and me that Isaiah thought the earth was flat. You insist on reading the Bible as a science or history textbook - Jane doesn't. She doesn't believe that the Bible was "... dictated by the Almighty, with every word perfectly preserved to say exactly what God intended." It isn't required to believe in the Bible to believe in Jesus.<BR/><BR/>Iztok and myself are like many who will not believe just because the Bible says so. We look at what is happening in our lives and in the world and try to make sense of it. We see love. We see a lot of sadness. We see death. We know some Christians who really do care and we know many who are mean.<BR/><BR/>You may really care. If so, you can believe that everyone is saved. Yes, the Bible says you must believe in Jesus to be saved. I think the Bible is wrong because this isn't how I experience the world. Stuff happens in the world whether I believe they happen or not. If Jesus saved us from Hell, then it is a fact whether we believe it or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-52068046669532035092008-02-22T12:15:00.000-05:002008-02-22T12:15:00.000-05:00Pornstudent & Iztok,I call it "cultural victimizat...Pornstudent & Iztok,<BR/><BR/>I call it "cultural victimization," when the culture causes pain, suffering, disability, and/or early death, but the victims cannot see that they are victims, because the culture says that what is happening is right. Only by looking outside your own culture into another can such victimization be apparent, as, for instance, in female genital mutilation, etc.<BR/><BR/>So subcultural victimization would be an extention of that idea. And the demand of a subculture to maintain belief as an act of obedience would be an example. CWC has to leave the discussion because he is caught in the dilemma that his subculture demands that he believe certain things, no matter how irrational they can be shown to be. I think we have to be kind and understanding toward the victims and recognize that we are all in some ways victims of our cultures. I believe we can work toward reducing and ultimately eliminating such victimization. Openness of mind and friendly debate are certainly central procedures to be advocated for.<BR/><BR/>And regarding religions specifically, my effort is to promote Humanianity, as clarified at my website.<BR/><BR/>Bill Van Fleet<BR/>HomoRationalis.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-6171925596778434752008-02-22T09:41:00.000-05:002008-02-22T09:41:00.000-05:00p*rnstudent and iztok, Nice try, we all know y...p*rnstudent and iztok,<BR/> Nice try, we all know you're exaggerating the case here. You're being completely unreasonable. I've given plenty of other evidence as a good case for putting your faith in Jesus throughout this blog. You're arguing just for the sake of arguing.<BR/><BR/> It does not seem like I'm much help here...sorry to waste your time. No need to keep going around in circles, it looks like we just disagree. Good luck with everything.<BR/><BR/> Iztok...read Romans like we talked about and see what you think.<BR/><BR/>-CWCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2954933932670299796.post-19661970868599677912008-02-22T06:36:00.000-05:002008-02-22T06:36:00.000-05:00CWC, just for the record, CIRCLE is a FLAT object....CWC, just for the record, CIRCLE is a FLAT object. No matter how you can twist and turn you can't get out of this. "above circle of the Earth" is simply as that (plus there are other references that writers of the Bible considered Earth flat - i.e. that someone was able to go high enough to see all the Earth, which would only be possible if it was flat). No matter how you twist and turn, authors of the Bible believed Earth was a flat object.<BR/><BR/>Yes it would be compared to the "scientists" who believed one could fall off the edge of the earth. With one exception, no real scientist would ever claim that his theory is end all be all. Scientific theories are all falsifiable theories and they get challenged on a regular basis (yes that includes theory of evolution and so far no better theory exist about evolution of life on this planet - in fact it seems so universal that it would easily explain any life in our universe, which is not what we could claim for creationism).<BR/><BR/>Which Ten Commandments? The ones that are actually labeled "Ten Commandments" or the ones most of us consider when we talk about them? God gave Moses the commandments 3 times and they changed during that time. But that doesn't matter. You still have to deal with the fact that punishment is highly just and yes if you go by the commandments you do reduce your deity to a vengeful score keeper.<BR/><BR/>So lets go (I am using "standard" ten commandments here, not the ones that are labeled as "Ten Commandments in the Bible):<BR/><BR/>1. Do not worship any other Gods.<BR/><BR/>If there are no other Gods this seems irrelevant statement. So unless God is really concerned with other Gods this doesn't make sense. It goes against what you believe that there is only one God. <BR/><BR/>2. Do not make any idols.<BR/><BR/>Hm... are we expected to destroy large proportion of our art here? Makes no sense - again.<BR/><BR/>3. Do not misuse the name of God. <BR/><BR/>This strikes to me rather odd, you?<BR/><BR/>4. Keep the Sabbath holy.<BR/><BR/>If God would really mean that wouldn't you think he would specify which day it is if this was so important? On top of that, what should we do with those who can't afford to keep this commandment? Are they punished with hell or stoned? What if they are forced to work due to their economic situation? Do they get punished for being responsible? Or is this an optional commandment one can break?<BR/><BR/>5. Honor your father and mother.<BR/><BR/>What if your father is a drunkard whose role was reduced to inseminating your mother and failing to pay child support. Does one have to honor such father?<BR/><BR/>What if your mother is a crack whore whose parental rights were terminated by DSS because of child neglect? Do you still have to honor such mother?<BR/><BR/>Perhaps this too is optional and have some "excuse" clause built in?<BR/><BR/>6. Do not murder.<BR/><BR/>This one is good but only if you can distinguish murder from killing. Most of the societies have pretty good norms about that, however there are no clear rules and we tend to fudge from time to time. Were people in Vietnam killed or murdered by US troops? What about the victims of religious wars in Balkans in 1990s? Or religious wars in Northern Ireland? Were they killed or murdered in combat? Is zygote already something one can murder? What about embryo? Blastocyst? Fetus?<BR/><BR/>What should we do when God commands to break these rules by slaying pregnant women? What should we think when he "orders" drying up their wombs?<BR/><BR/>7. Do not commit adultery.<BR/><BR/>Is this only for married women and men? As far as I could see in the Bible it was perfectly OK to have more then one woman. Is that an adultery too or not? If it is not, how could God consider those people good? Or do we get into the relativity of the Bible again?<BR/><BR/>8. Do not steal.<BR/><BR/>Easy to find a good example where stealing wouldn't be considered a major crime in our penal system and one could go free even if admitting it in front of a judge. But in your case, it seems one goes straight to hell!<BR/><BR/>On a bit of a side note, this obsession with hell really does scorch our kids! I had a discussion with my daughter when she claimed she is going to hell no matter what she does because she did steal, drink, smoke ... in the past (mid it she is only 16!). So at such tender age she is already abused by religious upbringing with threats of hell. It took me a while to snap her out of this mood for now but I need to undo the harm it was done to her by such a horrible idea of hell. She had to steal to feed herself because her parents (which she supposed to honor?) were not providing her what she needed.<BR/><BR/>9. Do not lie.<BR/><BR/>Obviously this one we can stretch as well. What if it is our job to lie and twist the truth? Our religious leaders do it all the time. Telling the followers promises they have no way to deliver or be held responsible for delivering is a big lie to me.<BR/><BR/>10. Do not covet.<BR/><BR/>Funny one. Our society is based on this. The whole capitalism is based on the fact that we covet to get more for ourselves. Perhaps this is advocating communism where one gets just what they need and gives what they can?<BR/><BR/>Again with death and resurrection... Do you seriously think that all powerful God would need a scapegoat for his forgives? If yes, then is he all powerful? If no, why such a barbaric gesture?<BR/><BR/>Is it loving gesture to condemn people to hell for relatively minor infractions? Like not honoring parents that are not worth the honor? Or working on Sabbath when one has to because of financial situation?<BR/><BR/>Or we can pick and choose out of ten commandments what we want at certain time and we are OK?<BR/><BR/>So I would be loving if I would offer my daughter the opportunity of forgiveness for breaking the law and if she doesn't take it it is perfectly loving to torture her forever because she stole something in order to survive? She was drinking due to peer pressure so she must be condemned to fire and brimstone?<BR/><BR/>I am sorry, but you do believe in a vengeful scorekeeper, you just fail to see it.<BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/> IztokAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com